Justin: 00:02

A red flag for me isn't the number of downloads you're getting. A red flag for a show is you're not getting any responses. Yeah. Nobody's reaching out. Nobody is taking the time and the effort to find you and give you something.

Jeremy: 00:16

That kind of feedback and engagement, that is the leading indicator that the downloads and the sponsors and the sales and all those other things that we attach our self worth and our measurement of whether the show is landing to. Like, those things come way down the line, but you don't get those things unless you're getting this feedback early on.

Justin: 00:32

There's no quantitative way of tracking these, but it's this qualitative sense of every single time I release an episode, am I getting something back? To me, that's the whole point of doing the show is to Yeah. Have people responding to what you're doing.

Jeremy: 00:49

So Justin, we think a lot about podcast marketing, and this is actually our final episode of season 1. So for 2 people such as us talking about this topic, I would imagine, you know, what do you think? How many downloads should we have had by the end of the season? Like, 100,000, 500,000, million? Like, where would your expectations kinda be here going in?

Justin: 01:07

Oh, I wish you had asked me this question at the beginning before we even recorded an episode. I think I was hoping that we would hit, like, a 1000 or 2000 downloads per episode.

Jeremy: 01:17

Yeah. I think that was in in my kind of back of my mind, like, that would be great. I think that was my aspirational mind speaking a little bit. I think my rational mind who has just been around podcast so much was kind of like, yeah. I don't really think that's in the cards here.

Jeremy: 01:31

But, you know, as we talked about in the previous episode, I had this email list. Do you have an email list with Transistor? And it's kinda like, okay. Can we mobilize these people to move them over to the show? And Yeah.

Jeremy: 01:41

Now we're at the the final episode of season 1. So in this episode, we are going to break down and share our stats from the season. And we're also gonna look at some of the areas that, things we think we did really well and some of the things that we probably missed the mark on a little bit or could have done better.

Justin: 01:58

And, yeah, for the listener that's listening, this is a great opportunity for you to think about things you think we could have done better or differently because we wanna hear that stuff. We are at the existential crisis stage of podcast recording in that. Should we keep doing this? Should we do something else? Should we stop podcasting forever, burn our microphones, and move into the woods?

Justin: 02:22

We wanna hear from you. So as you're listening to today's episode, take some notes on things that you liked about the show, things you would like to have seen us do. And, yeah, let us know through all the channels after you're done listening.

Jeremy: 02:36

Alright. So let's start off by breaking down the stats here. So we kinda mentioned that maybe our initial kinda secret hopes, were maybe a little bit misguided. And so we had I think, you know, I'm I'm pretty happy with how the show did given that, you know, I've certainly talked to so many people who podcast for months or years and are still at this kind of like, you know, 25 to 50 downloads an episode. And I think Mhmm.

Jeremy: 02:57

We'd mentioned in one of the previous episodes that we were getting roughly around 350 downloads an episode, Some more, some less. But the the big kind of thing that I wanna talk about with the stats here, that was a big question for both of us going in. And I know has been a question kind of in podcasting for the last several years now. Is this kind of podcasting audio only versus YouTube and video podcasting? And we've got some interesting data here, looking at both of these different platforms.

Justin: 03:23

Yeah. This is actually what was surprising to me when you sent me these stats is total, we had about 13,000 downloads slash views. These aren't the same thing, but really they kind of are like how many things got consumed. Right. And so on the podcast side, 7,334 downloads.

Justin: 03:43

That's about 57% of total downloads views. Over on the YouTube side, 43% of our, you know, listens, views, whatever, were on YouTube with, about almost 56100. So that was surprising to me. We have a very podcast centric audience. I thought we'd be 80% listening and then 20% on YouTube.

Justin: 04:11

Much higher on YouTube than I thought it would be. And incidentally, actually, if you add together both our podcast download numbers and our YouTube numbers, we're not quite at a 1000 downloads, but it's close. We're, like on some episodes, I think we're up right around that number. And so this kind of feels like the reality for a lot of shows going forward is they are going to publish the audio version, Apple Podcast, Spotify, Pocket Cast. But YouTube for many shows make sense.

Justin: 04:44

And I'm sure actually on your newsletter, it was often the first thing people would click. You see a thumbnail for a video. It's like, oh, I'll I'll click that and check it out. It's very accessible. It's discoverable.

Justin: 04:58

You know, once I subscribed to the YouTube channel, it was showing up on my home screen. It's just in more places and is definitely, you know, you get a boost that you might not get with the kind of slower relationship building pipe audience that audio podcast is.

Jeremy: 05:18

Another thing that's just occurring to me here with the podcast versus YouTube, we kind of messed with our numbers a little bit through some of the experiments that we did where Mhmm. There were 2 episodes where we released a long version and a short version and that boosted our audio only downloads. We didn't do this on the YouTube channel. So there was 2 extra episodes that probably boosted our podcast downloads by a cumulative maybe 3 or 400 downloads. And so that number should actually be lower in the audio only podcast category and higher in YouTube and so that would bring them even closer together.

Jeremy: 05:50

And my expectations were very limited. I think that going into this, I worked with a lot of people, talked with a lot of people who had podcasts that they were just putting up, you know, either just the kind of simple waveform on YouTube or maybe a unedited, just kind of raw video file on YouTube. And, you know, to be fair, probably you shouldn't expect to get that many views on YouTube if you're not really putting much effort into creating video first content. But Yeah. Even looking at somebody like Jay Klaus who invested a lot of money, a lot of time into his YouTube setup and editing for it took him basically a year before he had a huge breakthrough.

Jeremy: 06:21

And, I mean, he had a massive breakthrough with a multiple million, view video that finally went viral, but it took him a long time to get there. So I was kinda thinking like, okay. My channel is starting from, like, 30 subscribers, and, probably, we're gonna have to build that up in the first place. And so I was thinking, yeah, 90%, 80% of our total engagements were gonna come through the podcast. And it really surprised me in that it was much closer to 50% and actually even looking in March.

Jeremy: 06:48

So last month, we actually had more engagements on YouTube than we did on the podcast. And that was even before accounting for those extra bonus episodes that were showing up in the podcast feed. So I think the thing that's impressed me most about this is that we've definitely put some time and effort into YouTube, but I don't think it's been an incredible amount of production value that is out of reach of the average person.

Justin: 07:10

Yeah. It does affect the production time and cost, but at the same time, for some shows, I think it's worth it.

Jeremy: 07:20

I think the other thing here is that we, with the roast in particular, had content on those episodes where I heard from some people who were saying, like, I feel like I'm missing out when I listen to audio version. And so that pushes more people to YouTube that there is content that is visual in nature that makes it more likely that we are going to build a subscriber base on YouTube because the format, if not outright demands it, it at least encourages it somewhat strongly. And, you know, we try to talk through everything to make sure that there is a valuable audio only experience, and a lot of people do listen to the roasts, in audio only format. But if you do look at the stats, the best performing episodes on YouTube tend to be the roasts and the Yeah. The roasts are in the audio only format.

Jeremy: 08:03

They're all the worst performing episodes. And so Yeah. We can clearly kinda see that in the data that probably these are the same people who are choosing to engage with the show in different ways depending on the format, which is, you know, something that doesn't really apply to every show. But it's also something that I think most shows could build in some kind of visual element if they wanted to take advantage of YouTube that they're not doing now, but could either it's a separate show that they release a different day of the week or they build in some kind of segment or something like that that could encourage more people to engage on YouTube and potentially get that flywheel kinda going

Justin: 08:34

there. Yeah. What were some of the other stats? We have engagement time and consumption rate. Do you wanna talk through those?

Jeremy: 08:41

Yeah. So the engagement time is the one that's really interesting to me, and this is one that YouTube makes really easy to find for every video and your channel as a whole. So how many hours did people spend with your content? But in podcasting, it's incredibly hard to find. Apple has made it easy to do but every other platform, you kind of have to guess and look and and kind of extrapolate from Apple's data across your feed.

Jeremy: 09:01

And so Yeah. This was something that I got turned on to from, Dan Meisner and Jonas Wust at Bumper. And so they've got a series of blog posts about how engagement time or listen time is their primary metric. And the more I started to think about this, I thought, yeah this is really what makes sense. And I think regardless of what your show goals are, you don't really care so much about views as time spent with you.

Jeremy: 09:24

And so I think if you're a business owner, the more time people spend with you, the more affinity they're gonna build for you, the more likely they're gonna buy your product or service. If you have Yeah. Sponsors for your show, the more time people spend with you, the more ads they're gonna hear. And so, really, that is the metric that you do want to be kind of working towards. And so it's hard to measure.

Jeremy: 09:41

It's hard to track, but I basically took our, engagement rate or consumption rate from Apple and Apple gives you, like, the episode length in seconds, which is a bit interesting, but made a spreadsheet looking at what was our engagement time per episode as a whole. And what we saw here is, you know, is almost 5050 in terms of audio only consumption versus YouTube. But in terms of engagement time, it was just under 75% audio only podcast and only 26% or so for YouTube. And so that tells the story that, like, podcast listeners spend a lot more time with the content than YouTube viewers do.

Justin: 10:15

I think that's fascinating. And in our case, we really can use that Apple Podcasts metric as a baseline because Apple Podcasts was by far most of our downloads. I'm seeing about 37100 on Apple Podcasts versus Mhmm. The runner-up was Spotify at 952. Yeah.

Justin: 10:34

So 3 or 4 times more downloads on Apple Podcasts for us.

Jeremy: 10:38

The other interesting thing on that note was looking at the kind of spikes in listenership on the different platforms, whereas almost every platform is super spiky around episode release dates, but Spotify actually is flatter. And so they have obviously their algorithm that when you're logging into Spotify for music, like they're pulling stuff up for you and making recommendations, There's more opportunities to get back in front of people. The same is true for Youtube where a lot of times we would have a video that would kind of do okay or maybe even not that great for the 1st few days. And then something would kind of pick it up and it would get all these downloads starting a week later. And and there'd be, like, 4 or 5 days where it's just bringing in all these new downloads and the great thing about YouTube as well is that you can kinda build in those at the end of the video, make a recommendation to another video.

Jeremy: 11:25

And so there is it's a small number of people who trickle through that but there is kinda more discovery of your feed if you get people to stick through the the full episode. The other thing that was, interesting to me here looking at the consumption rate. And so this it kind of becomes apparent when you think about that engagement time that people spend. But in the audio only podcast, we were right under we're at 69.8%, typical episode consumption rate. So just under 70%.

Jeremy: 11:50

And then on YouTube, on the other side, it was 20%. So I think that's even probably pretty good for YouTube, especially long form YouTube videos. And so I'm pretty happy with that. I think it's hard to get somebody to watch a 45 minute video on YouTube all the way through. So I think 20% is solid, but it's not merely what it is on the audio only feed.

Justin: 12:09

Yeah. And it it shows you the strength of each platform. Podcasts are great because when you get in the car and you're driving to work, you're gonna listen. You're kind of there in place and there's nothing else kind of asking for your attention, in terms of content. But YouTube, you know, like, if you watch my kids watch YouTube, like, if we got something on the TV, they are simultaneously watching, you know, something on their phone and playing on their iPad, and they've got a game going on their laptop.

Justin: 12:38

Like, they are all over the place.

Jeremy: 12:41

So those are kind of the numerical analytical stats breakdowns, but I know that there was another category of it might not be considered stats, but it is kind of feedback. And so we can think about stats as being feedback on the quality of the show, the effectiveness of our marketing, all these types of things. But there's this anecdotal side of things as well that I know I think both of us maybe value that more than the analytics. And I'm curious to hear your kind of take on some of the things you've heard back from listeners and what that maybe says about what we've done with the show this season.

Justin: 13:10

I always call this the response rate. And candidly, downloads and views and all that stuff is not that meaningful to me because who knows what happened. Like, somebody could have been listening to you in the car, but their mind is somewhere else. Somebody could be having your YouTube video on in the background, but they're cooking. And I don't care about that stuff as much.

Justin: 13:32

What I care about is response rate. How many people listened to an episode or listened to a series of episodes and then took the time to reach out in some way? So did they email us? Did they leave us a YouTube comment? Did they leave us a review on Apple Podcasts?

Justin: 13:51

Did they DM me? Did they come up to me at, conference and say, hey. I listened to the show. Response rate, that's what I care about. People caring enough to respond to what you're doing.

Justin: 14:04

And a red flag for me isn't the number of downloads you're getting. A red flag for a show is you're not getting any responses. Yeah. Nobody's reaching out. Nobody is taking the time and the effort to find you and give you something.

Justin: 14:20

And, of course, this is harder to do in podcasting, but that's what makes it so valuable when somebody does. If somebody takes the time to write an email to you after they finished listening to your episode on their drive home, that is meaningful. So there's people that tweeted about the show, like Josh Spector just today, recommended us on Twitter, had this really nice write up. That's gold. People recommending the show.

Justin: 14:45

We had a bunch of DMs on Twitter, DMs on LinkedIn, messages, other places, emails, YouTube comments. This is what is meaningful. And for me, there's no quantitative way of tracking these, but it's this qualitative sense of, am I getting responses every single time I release an episode? Am I getting something back? And if you are, to me, that's the whole point of doing a show is to Yeah.

Justin: 15:17

Have people responding to what you're doing.

Jeremy: 15:19

Yeah. I think that, you know, knowing how much friction there is in podcasting. And so to see that come through knowing all the challenges that there are to get somebody to actually take that action, that has been the most kind of fulfilling thing with this show. And it was like from day 1, from launch day, there were people within that 1st week who were not just saying, like, oh, great job on the show. Like, congrats on the launch.

Jeremy: 15:39

There's people who I really respected as creators and entrepreneurs and business owners who were saying, wow. This show is awesome. I have been waiting for the show, and I am binging the show now. And Yeah. It's been cool to see as more episodes have come out there, the number of people who I have heard just unprompted recommending the show on Twitter or LinkedIn and tagging us and saying, like, this is the show I'm binging right now.

Jeremy: 16:01

And I think hearing that, I'm like, we're onto something here. And so looking at maybe 350 downloads an episode, if we take into account the YouTube views as well, that's around 627 views listens per episode, however you wanna call it. And so that's a a decent amount of interactions with each episode, but it's not a crazy amount. But the level of feedback that we've got from the show in terms of people unprompted sharing it, responding to the things that we're doing has been much much much higher than any show that I have ever produced, myself before which I think that so often that kind of feedback and engagement, that is the leading indicator that the downloads and the sponsors and the sales and all those other things that we often kind of attach our, maybe, self worth and our measurement of whether the show is landing to. Like, those things come way down the line, but you don't get those things unless you're getting this feedback early on.

Jeremy: 16:53

And so to me, getting that stuff, especially from, like, discerning listeners who are super successful, like, there's been my friend, Chanel. She runs a newsletter called Growth in Reverse, and she she has a great premise for her newsletter. It's basically she reverse engineers how, newsletter writers with 50,000 subscribers got there. And she's now, I think, like, 30, 40000 subscribers, something like that. Maybe she went past it already.

Jeremy: 17:16

And so she has, like, a lot of success as a creator. She, like, is discerning. She knows what she's doing. Josh has a huge Twitter following. He has a big email list.

Jeremy: 17:23

People like Jay Clouse. And there's all these people, Arvid Kaul. And so there's all these people who I've looked up to for a long time for their creative work and them saying, like, I'm bingeing the show and they're recommending it to their friends. Like, that to me is like, okay. We hit something on the head with this one.

Jeremy: 17:37

Yeah.

Justin: 17:37

I think for people listening, there is another side to this, which is your response rate can be high. You can have lots of people interacting. You can have some super fans. But, like, you need more listeners to make the show work, and all you have is super fans. Response rate is an important metric, but some shows need those high download numbers so they can sell ads.

Justin: 18:00

And if that's you, then, of course, you've gotta move beyond the handful of people who are responding to each episode and sharing it and leaving comments and sending you emails depending on the podcast economy you're playing in.

Jeremy: 18:11

The other thing that I'll just kinda touch on before we move on to the next section is the cool thing regarding our audience is that we talked about this in the previous episode, how we didn't really define it going in. Are we speaking to more advanced podcasters, more beginners? But we're kind of having a bit of a higher caliber of conversation, kind of assuming that the listener is up to speed on the basics at least. And what's been really cool has been getting feedback both from people who are a bit earlier on and maybe haven't found traction with their shows. They're maybe in their first, you know, couple dozen episodes, something like that.

Jeremy: 18:39

But then we've also got this feedback from, like, podcast industry professionals and professional podcast marketers who I have a friend who, I've just had with the other day. He's worked on 2 of the world's biggest shows as their, like, growth person and ops person. And he told me the other day, he's like, dude, the show I love the show. It's so good. And so getting that feedback from people at the very top and then also people throughout the spectrum down to to people who are just starting out, that's been really rewarding and is almost something I wouldn't have thought was possible going in.

Jeremy: 19:09

But that again is another signal I'm like, okay. We're we're really doing something right with the show. And that feedback is kind of allows you to see because you're, you know, as a creator, you're just kind of in the dark, and you don't really know until you hear these kind of pings back from from different people out there.

Justin: 19:22

Yeah. And if you're out there and you're wondering, you might be scared. You might be like, oh my gosh. I'm not getting any feedback. There are ways to prompt feedback.

Justin: 19:30

So you might not be getting feedback because you just haven't given listeners the right prompts. And a prompt can be as simple as, hey, folks. If you're listening right now, I would love to know what you think about the show. Reach out to me by DM, by email. Like, give people some options, but prompt them.

Justin: 19:46

Let them know that you're looking for that feedback and then see what comes in.

Jeremy: 19:50

And the one other thing I'll add on to that is it's much easier to get feedback when you have an existing channel of communication. And so if you are already connected with people, you're already part of a community, and then you start the show, you're gonna be much more likely for those people to respond to you rather than if you have no existing interactions with that community. People don't know you at all and maybe you have some listeners, but you you've never engaged with them through email or social media or any other way. And so I think embedding yourself in that community even before you launch or once your show is already going, it's kind of primes the pump a little bit to get feedback and to get engagement when you have already initiated some of that engagement previously.

Justin: 20:25

Absolutely. Yeah. Alright. So let's move on to a

Jeremy: 20:28

bit of an assessment here. We talked about the stats here in the first part, which are are interesting certainly to some extent. But one of the nice things about doing a seasonal show like this is there's kind of this natural break to say, okay. Let's take a step back. Let's take a breath, and let's look objectively at what are some of the things that we think we did really well, which, you know, we clearly were get by getting the feedback that we were getting.

Jeremy: 20:47

And then what are some of the things that maybe we missed the mark on or could develop further in future seasons or that we just, you know, didn't have the time or bandwidth to to capitalize on. So let's start with you on the things that you think we did really well with the show in this season and and some some of the things that you're proud of.

Justin: 21:03

Yeah. I mean, I I do think we did a pretty good job of promoting the show overall. You had this email newsletter that you've been doing forever. We had the transistor email list. We promoted it on Twitter.

Justin: 21:15

We had built up some existing channels that made sense. LinkedIn ended up being kind of good for us too. We also did a good job of promoting the show before we launched. So Yeah. We built some anticipation leading up to the show, and sometimes that was just, like, releasing a screenshot of you and I talking or whatever.

Justin: 21:35

So, yeah, I feel pretty good about it. I feel like we gave that a good effort.

Jeremy: 21:40

Yeah. I think with the launch in particular, we did a really good job. And there would be some things I might do a little bit differently. We had a long lag time between our teaser episode and then our next episode. And Mhmm.

Jeremy: 21:52

So we got up to number 27 in the US marketing charts at the launch, which is higher than I expected that we would get. But I think we actually diluted that by promoted the teaser first and got a bunch of followers and subscribers then, and then the the main episode or the first episode on our official launch date. I think if we had kind of just combined that into one push, I don't know how high we could have gotten, but higher than 27. And this was really surprising to me. We stayed in the top 200 of the marketing category throughout most of the season.

Jeremy: 22:19

And we were often around the number 100 mark, which given our download numbers, I was kind of like, oh, I'm kind of surprised we're, we're that high. And so I think that does show you a little bit, like, it's less competitive than you think it is. Like, if you're a show getting a 1,000 gallons an episode, you're probably gonna be in the top 100 of most categories. And so that was kinda cool. Personally, I felt like the promotion for me in terms of outward facing social media declined from there.

Jeremy: 22:44

I feel like the launch was the high watermark and I feel like I did a really good job promoting to my email list, which to me is like the warmest audience. So it feels like it makes the most sense to promote to them first. I think there's a lot more we could get out of those people already. But I did feel like it when it came to posting clips or things like that, that would be something that I personally would look to improve in the subsequent season.

Justin: 23:03

I also think we did, like, we did a lot of experimentation. I liked that. We were using tools like Linkfire, Chartable. You you used Spotify's engagement tools, rating links and show notes. We did that episode length experiment.

Justin: 23:18

You sent out that audience, why don't you listen survey. Yeah. And that to me is the building blocks of, like, making something great is experimenting, especially early on when the download numbers are low enough. That's like, let's let's fiddle around with this a little bit. We also experimented with structure and engagement loop of, you know, let's get the roasts going.

Jeremy: 23:43

Yeah. I think that was fun to do. There was a lot of things. Like, it's been a while since I had my last personal show, and a lot of times I've had ideas over the years where I'll kinda tell friends about them like, hey. This would be an interesting thing to try.

Jeremy: 23:53

Like, you should do this. But being able to do that with this show and just have this idea and be like, This is like a small thing or a big thing or whatever, but, like, why not try it out? That's been really fun, rewarding, and there's been a lot of great insights out of it. And so that to me, yeah, that was a big plus and pro from the season and something that I think I would like to lean into further going forward and really building that. We've talked about this a little bit previously.

Jeremy: 24:14

Like, that could become a core part of a premise for this show or another show where it's maybe wholly built around experiments. And, like, maybe that's a sporadically released show where we don't release it every week, but it's like every time we have an episode that we do an experiment on, we run that and, you know, maybe it's 1 a month or something like that. And that's the whole feed. That could be something interesting too. And then I think to me, the other big thing that I was really proud of with the season is just the production as a whole.

Jeremy: 24:38

And so part of that is the video production, which I've muddled around with some video production in the past, but really figuring it out, getting a workflow down for this that was kind of audio video. To me, that was a fun part of this. It was also a very time intensive part of this. And one of the reasons that we're not just doing this 2 episodes a week on an ongoing basis is that there's just a lot of work that goes in the video side. But Yeah.

Jeremy: 24:59

I think that from both the technical production but also the content organization, I think we did some really interesting things that in the first two or three episodes, I don't think we'd quite found our footing. And then we started getting into this idea. We have the structure with these, like, 3 scenes per episode. We've got our hook and starting to get creative with some of the episode formatting things and how we're presenting the this idea that we have for the episode in a way that's maybe one layer more complex than just a let's just talk through this topic in one unbroken streak. And so that, I think, to me, has been the biggest takeaway is like, oh, okay.

Jeremy: 25:32

I've had a lot of ideas around structuring content, and now we got to experiment and play with a bunch of those.

Justin: 25:37

Yeah. The evolution. I I'm I've even forgotten that, like, the structure of the show changed. We developed this 3 scene structure that was so helpful for us. Three scenes is just so much easier to organize your thoughts around.

Justin: 25:52

It just gave us, like, ah, now we've got a format that we can follow.

Jeremy: 25:55

This is one of the things that happens. We've talked about this before, but a lot of times you don't find the groove with a specific show or a specific project until you get a number of episodes in. And Mhmm. I was actually kind of impressed at how quickly we kinda got into some of these things. Obviously, we we're both immersed in podcasting, so you kind of kinda recognize some of these things.

Jeremy: 26:13

We have a lot of creative experience. And so we kind of found our way into those maybe faster than I would have expected. But the other thing that I think is worth mentioning is you talked about this, like, finding a format that works for us. These roasts were like, they just emerged as a kind of, like Mhmm. Idea that we had of, like, oh, this would be fun to do.

Jeremy: 26:29

We've done this just on an ad hoc basis on YouTube in the past. It's like, oh, maybe we add that on to it's just a segment to each episode. And then we did one and we're like, oh, we just talked for 45 minutes. That's not a segment of the show. That's a whole other episode.

Jeremy: 26:41

And so stumbling into those, it's interesting that those have been really resonant with our audience and they get talked about a lot and we get good feedback on both styles of episodes and they kinda compliment each other, but it's been cool to, like, that was a complete accident. And it's actually this kind of arena where we can take some of the things we talk about on the main episodes and say, oh, here's how some of these things show up in practice. And Yeah. That's been really cool that I think those two things really complement each other. And the nice thing about those is that they're really easy for us to do.

Jeremy: 27:12

And you can kind of strategize this of, like, where is there something that just is easy to create? It doesn't take a ton of prep work, but it creates high quality content. There's this kind of arbitrage going on here. Mhmm. And I think that the roasts are that for us where it's like, we can record endless roasts, and we don't need to do a ton of prep.

Jeremy: 27:29

We have to pick a show that seems kinda interesting, and we can come on and we can talk about it knowledgeably, and it creates a great episode. And so those have been kind of a a revelation.

Justin: 27:38

Yeah. And I think maybe let's move into the things we didn't do so well. The roasts were like this great idea that just grew organically out of what we were doing.

Jeremy: 27:46

Mhmm.

Justin: 27:47

But I think my conclusion on the roasts is that they didn't belong so much in the feed, you know? Yeah. And that they make a great YouTube show, but not so much a podcast episode.

Jeremy: 28:00

I think

Justin: 28:01

we could have kept our audio feed a little bit more pure and tight and concise. And I think people would have even, like, maybe found it more compelling and been willing to try it more often if we had not had those in our audio feed. And if we had just been, like, oh, wow. Like, we just found a great format for YouTube. Let's keep that over there, and then let's have these audio episodes here.

Jeremy: 28:26

That was the always the big thing for me with them where I was like, these these are good content, but it feels like from a momentum perspective, it was good to have them in this feed because we were getting people we can push people to one place to get this. But Mhmm. Something that we've talked quite a bit on both the roast and the main episodes is this idea of having a kind of concise and compelling show concept. And so the show concept for this show was really taking the data from the podcast marketing trends report and breaking that down. And the roasts are not associated with that at all.

Jeremy: 28:56

There is no tie in to the report. And so from a brand perspective around the report, the roasts are kind of diluting that and kind of taking away from it. And I will probably do this in the future is actually remove the roast from this feed to keep this feed true to the premise that it is. And so that if somebody comes into this, they're getting what was promised to them in a consistent dosage. And maybe that's creating another feed that's just for the roasts where the audio versions can live there and all you're gonna get is the roasts and we could unite this under a a channel in Apple Podcasts and kinda tie it together in different ways.

Jeremy: 29:28

But I do think that seeing the clear differentiator between okay. The typical shows get much more downloads than the roasts do. And also, there was some anecdotal feedback from people that they enjoyed 1 episode more than the other and that they only listen to 1. And I thought, it should be a more cohesive experience in a long term kind of brand building, show building perspective.

Justin: 29:51

Yeah. And I think the other thing in terms of what we did, we could have done better. We kind of bit off more than we could chew in a sense. Yeah. Like, we record these episodes.

Justin: 29:59

We start at 10, and typically, we wouldn't finish till 3 PM my time. Mhmm. That's a lot of time. And this episode that we're recording right now so we're already at about 43 minutes record time between, like, pre talking and strategizing and going over things and then recording the episode. So to get a 45 minute episode, I would say maybe hour and a half Mhmm.

Justin: 30:23

Total. So that's already a big chunk of time, and then we added on recording 2 roasts or in another episode. So we were, like, batching all these things together, and these Tuesdays have just been a lot. It's just, like, a lot of recording. But maybe what we should have done is said, man, that roast idea is so great.

Justin: 30:43

We should just wait until the end of the show. Like, we'll finish the season, then we'll collect all of the people who left reviews, and then we'll start doing roast. But we just, like, crammed it all in here. And that is a big part of doing a show is creator burnout and Yeah. You know, can you sustain it?

Jeremy: 31:03

Yeah. And that's just recording time. That's not postproduction or anything else. And so

Justin: 31:07

Not editing, not promotion, nothing else. It's like, if we're talking about total time per episode, including Chris' time and Yeah. Including promotion, it's like, I don't know, 10, 15 hours of human time per episode, something like that.

Jeremy: 31:24

I think more. Because if you even consider if we've been doing, let's say, 3 hours on these calls or more, there's 6 hours just between the 2 of us just in recording. There's some prep that goes in before that. So I think you get to almost 10 hours before postproduction almost even starts or the the early bit. So, yeah, I think if you're talking person hours, it could be 25 probably after accounting for everything.

Justin: 31:46

Yeah. So Whereas if you compared it to something like the roast, the roast is something that we could do where we just show up, pick a name off the list, get into it, be done the recording in 20, 30 minutes is where we were getting to. So that that production like, the recording time of that was much shorter.

Jeremy: 32:05

A couple other things that I noted down that I think we we could have done better. I feel like we started really strong with some of the kind of build in public stuff and sharing more of the behind the scenes publicly. We talked through a lot of stuff and some of our experiments on the show, but I would have liked to do more of that through blog posts or just Twitter threads or on LinkedIn with screenshots and some of the behind the scenes things because that would be in in such alignment with the show premise and in service to our listeners. And so that's something that we've got a bunch of stuff that we did here, but I feel like it could have been shared a little bit more in other mediums other than on the podcast, which actually would have done a better job getting people back to the podcast. So Yeah.

Jeremy: 32:45

That was one thing that that I was like, okay, I kinda missed opportunity there. I personally would have liked to experiment more with dynamic ad insertion, which we did maybe just once or twice, but I think that that's something that there's a lot of interesting creative opportunities that are not just about running ads. And so that's something that I've got a few ideas that maybe we'll run some experiments in a future season or a different show, but I think there's lots of room to kind of innovate there on rather than just, like, doing a plug for a sponsor or even your own stuff. So, maybe a little bit of a tease of some future experiments come in there.

Justin: 33:19

I also think Michael Osborne's feedback, we talked about he's the one of the hosts of Famous and Gravy. And his feedback was, like, if you had a specific audience in mind or if you knew that you were just talking, for example, to not beginners and not the, you know, big producers of the big shows, but this group in the middle

Jeremy: 33:39

Mhmm.

Justin: 33:39

We didn't have to have so many disclaimers of, like, well, it depends. And we we had to be a little loosey goosey. And for the listener, I think it could sometimes feel like, do they know they're speaking to me? You know? And I think identifying, like, this show is for those people in the middle.

Justin: 33:55

They've already started a show.

Elaine Appleton Grant: 33:56

They've already gone 0 to 1. They are now trying

Justin: 33:57

to go from 1 to 10. And what does that take? And, if we just been clear about that, we could have treated them with the level of sophistication that they already had.

Jeremy: 34:09

Yeah. The last thing that I had down here and I think this is both something that we did well and also something that we could have made a different kinda creative decision on is that we are both business owners who serve our audience. We have done 0 promotion really of our own stuff in the show, which actually there was there was a a funny bit of feedback early on that I think you had mentioned transistor. I wouldn't have even called it a plug, but we got some negative listener feedback from that. And I think that kind of both of us were like, okay, so we got some vocal people who don't wanna be promoted to, and that actually did come up a lot in our listener feedback survey, surprisingly, from the people who had never even listened to the show.

Jeremy: 34:48

But it seemed like there was a lot of people who had this impression that podcasts were mostly just selling to their listeners. And so that's not the experience that we wanted to create here, but one of the interesting things is that I've had to provide some additional context to a lot of my clients and students who have been listening to the show and will kind of make note of something. And I'll say like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy: 35:08

Okay. So with our situation, it's a little bit different. If I was doing the show just for my business and the whole point was to get more customers or email subscribers, I would do things differently than we are doing in the show. But it's a bit of a different situation where, like, we have different businesses, and the show isn't really meant to serve that purpose. But I think there is a a bit of a danger, and we're talking a lot about marketing.

Jeremy: 35:29

We have not demonstrated in future shows, like, we might make different decisions. And speaking of caveats, in future shows, like, we might make different decisions. And speaking of caveats, if you are a business owner, like, we have not necessarily exhibited the best practices here with that goal in mind.

Justin: 35:50

There is also just a long play of podcasts is a relationship game. And so Mhmm. As we do the show, eventually people get to know us, and then they go, oh, like, I know that Justin is connected to this, and Jeremy is connected to this. And people wanting to take the next step could do that. Right?

Justin: 36:11

And maybe that initial bit of criticism, we should have just not listened to it. It was just too early. It didn't matter. Yeah. We got too sensitive about it.

Jeremy: 36:18

Alright. So we've kinda hinted that we're at this crossroads where this is tied to the podcast marketing trends report. And so there is going to be another report coming out likely in the next few months or so. And so we will have some new fodder for a new season at that point. But in the meantime, we've also kinda built up this momentum and we're kind of like, okay.

Jeremy: 36:37

How do we keep this going? Should we keep this going? And so we've got a bunch of ideas brewing, and it's kind of decision time as to, you know, what do we do with this at this point?

Justin: 36:47

Yeah. So I think for anybody who is listening to this right now, anybody who's been watching us, we wanna know from you, what should we do next? We have some ideas. The first thing is we could keep this feat going. And I think a lot of folks who have heard us talk about, like, we're thinking about taking a break from this show, and they're like, what?

Justin: 37:10

Like, you did all that work getting this thing going, getting people to click follow in Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and now you're just gonna leave that? Like, what are you thinking about? And, again, personally, I kinda feel like I would like a different format just because this format's been a lot of work. Now the next time we do the podcast marketing trends report, it might be faster. We might have episodes that are 20 minutes and not do the podcast roasts

Jeremy: 37:38

Mhmm.

Justin: 37:38

And it would be fine. But there's this other thing is, like, we built up this feed with a bunch of people who wanna make their shows better and bigger, and it's like we could just repurpose this feed for something else as well.

Jeremy: 37:54

This is such a classic question that so many podcasters face at some point is that you change your interest. Sometimes it's really slight. The the kind of focus of your show shifts just a little bit. Sometimes it's a a dramatic kinda drastic rebrand and you're kinda like, what do I do with this existing feed? And my typical response is usually, if you're doing a rebrand of your business and your show and your existing audience is at least most of them are going to be interested in the new direction, I would keep that feed.

Jeremy: 38:22

Potentially, I would keep all the episodes on it in the back catalog depending on on if you're really dramatically shifting the premise. Maybe I would get rid of those and take those down depending on the experience that you want new listeners to have.

Justin: 38:33

But Mhmm.

Jeremy: 38:34

This case is a little bit interesting because we kinda set this up as a seasonal show and have the intention at least right now that we're gonna do additional seasons with each new, report that comes out. And so Yeah. My kind of intention right now with that report is to keep doing it annually. And so where I'm at as a creator right now is I am liking this kind of seasonal approach to projects where I have a few things that I do on an ongoing basis that are manageable and fit into my life and then doing like a few more ambitious projects throughout the year. And so part of me really likes the idea of doing maybe one 6 to 10 episode season based on the report each year that can kinda fit into maybe record all the episodes in 1 month and then drip them out alongside the report after that.

Jeremy: 39:18

That feels nice and I think that if that's the kind of case here, then keeping this feed aligned with that concept and tied to the report makes sense. But I do think that we could use this feed still to launch additional shows off of. And maybe we even take those kinda cross promo or feed drop episodes that we might do for a new show. We leave those up for a time and then we take them down so that they're not kinda cluttering up the feed with just a long string of cross promo episodes between seasons. So that's my kind of initial thought on how we can kinda leverage what we've done already here because probably some of these other ideas we're thinking about are gonna be very relevant to the audience that we've already built up while still kind of preserving the brand around that we built up around the show.

Justin: 40:00

Yeah. It's actually very hard to repurpose a feed for something else. I've tried it a number of times. It's difficult. Mhmm.

Justin: 40:07

And again, with this show, it's not like we're giving up thousands and thousands of subscribers. It's like we built up to a couple 100 subscribers, but it still feels like we could launch something new if we wanted to, and it might still do just as well or better. And we would have a nice baseline to compare it against. Right?

Jeremy: 40:25

Yeah. So let's talk through some of these ideas that we have for potential new additional shows, kinda different directions that we might be able to take with different show concepts here. And to start this off, we have kind of thought that we're probably going to keep doing the roast. Maybe those get their own audio feed. We'll probably certainly keep doing them as YouTube first, kinda episodes.

Jeremy: 40:47

But we've also got 3 other ideas for interesting kinda audio first podcast that might be worth exploring. So you wanna talk us through what those ideas might be?

Justin: 40:57

Yeah. So from the time you and I met, we had this idea to do a show called Make It Big. I I don't know if you listen to the podcast Startup by Gimlet, but that was kind of a narrative show where they were going through, like, what it was like to build a startup. And we were thinking we could do a similar idea, but you and I would take an existing podcast that's out there already that we think has promise, but they're only doing, you know, maybe 500, a 1000 downloads per episode. And then we would coach them each week to make the show big.

Justin: 41:33

So this is all made up by we're gonna help Ellie McBride take her podcast about auto mechanics from 1,000 downloads per episode to 10,000. Can we do it? Listen to find out. I like this one because it's got narrative. It's got journey.

Justin: 41:49

Nobody knows how it's gonna turn out. Every week, we're trying to implement a strategy, and there's this kind of build in public, like, what's happening as they are giving this advice to a real person, and then people get to know the real person. They get to know what their aspirations are for the show, what the show means to them, why it needs to succeed. You know, if Ellie doesn't get to 10,000 downloads, she's gonna lose her house. So there's, like, stakes.

Justin: 42:13

I love all that stuff. It it has a few problems. One is that it sounds like a lot of work.

Jeremy: 42:19

To be honest, on our side of things, I don't know that there would be that much work. It would depend on how involved we were with the marketing and strategy side of things. So there's another series that, Chris Do, did. He's much more of a YouTube creator. He's a former motion designer, now runs a, education company on freelancing called the future.

Jeremy: 42:40

And he had the series on the YouTube channel where he took I think she was a brand designer and it was like every month or something like that, they had a coaching call and so it was like a live coaching call and he was helping her build out her brand in public. And I remember this from several years ago and I always thought, that is such a great concept for a show because it's really easy for him. He gets to display and just do what he's good at and ask insightful questions and she has to kinda react to this and she brings all these situations and saying like, okay. I'm in this situation. I'm having this negotiation with the client.

Jeremy: 43:10

They only wanna pay this much, but I know that it's worth this much. It's gonna take way more time. Like, how do I handle this? How do I, like, close the deal here? And he kinda talks her through all these different scenarios.

Jeremy: 43:18

And so Mhmm. I really like that concept for this show. And I think if we pick the right person who had some subject matter that we at least had some familiarity with, we kinda knew the space, we could guide them through that. I don't know necessarily that it would be a ton of work on our end but my concern would be that it puts so much pressure on that person that if we have a, let's say, weekly publishing schedule, this needs to be basically their full time job for them to be able to keep up and make all this progress and implement all these things. And there's also often in podcasting and marketing, this long lead time between taking an action and getting result.

Jeremy: 43:57

And so my thought is that if we were gonna do this show, we would essentially need to record the episodes bit by bit over the course of, like, a year or something like that And then release it as a season, you know, drip them out week by week at the end of that, which sounds fun from, you know, one perspective, But it's also just like, okay, we gotta do all this work upfront and it's gonna be so long before we get any kind of feedback on this or anything like that. So Yeah. I love the idea of this, but it doesn't really feel feasible right now based on on where we're at, I don't think.

Justin: 44:29

It's kind of missing the real time aspect of, like, putting something out and then getting feedback right away. And also, my question with all of these ideas Yep. Is would something simpler, less work, maybe less lead time, less production time, give us a similar result. As in our goal for that show would be to continue to grow our audience within the podcasting community. Maybe there's another concept that would also do that.

Justin: 45:00

Even though that's a great idea, there might be something else. Yep. Here's another idea that we had is a show called what makes it great, the attributes of great podcasts. And so here, I like this idea of inviting an expert panel member each week who can sit on a panel with us. And we would go, let's listen to this clip together.

Justin: 45:23

Let's watch what Tim Ferris is doing here and talk about why it works. So we would be reacting to real clips from podcasts that people know and identifying why does this work. Let's listen to this segment from Ira Glass, or let's listen to this segment from Wendy Zuckerman from Science Versus. And go, here's what Wendy does amazing right here. Listen to this clip.

Justin: 45:49

So I like it because I'm always listening to podcasts, and often I, like, discover sections or shows or episodes that are doing something really well. And dissecting that for an audience would be really interesting.

Jeremy: 46:05

Yeah. This is one that I've had this idea for years, and I thought about it doing it in newsletter form. I thought about doing it in podcasting form. I think once we started talking about doing a show, this was one of the ideas we initially batted around, And we've kind of done of the opposite version of this. I mean, the roasts do have we offer praise as well as constructive, feedback and criticism.

Jeremy: 46:24

But this one is all about, like, the things that make a show truly great. And so what I like about it is I'm just doing this naturally. When I'm listening to podcasts, it's this thing where I'm like, oh, wow. They just do do that really well, and this is what elevates this show above other similar shows. And so it feels like part of what I would get out of this is right now, I do this, and I don't have anyone to tell about it.

Jeremy: 46:42

Yeah. And so being able to, like, listen, find something interesting, and be like, oh, this is so cool. Like, and with it's essentially like a nerd out session with other people who all, you know, understand what makes great shows and then being able to share that with an audience as well. So I love that idea of a show. I think it could be higher production value with pulling in clips and things like that.

Jeremy: 47:02

I really like that version that my other concern would be how much work does that become. I don't think it would necessarily need to be that much work. It's fairly easy to just pull in a couple clips here and there. But what I kind of like about this idea is bringing in somebody and asking them about their favorite show and what they love about it and us kind of reacting for the first time. And I think that there's something interesting about that, about somebody who's a super fan of a show, who knows everything there is about it, and it can be like, okay.

Jeremy: 47:28

Listen for this. Like, this is, like, classic Jay Acunzo on unthinkable. Yeah. How he does this thing in every episode. And, you know, I'm just, like, the big fan of his, and he's he does this better than anyone else.

Jeremy: 47:38

And, like, that's a show where we can then kind of, like, appreciate that somebody else can kinda give the breakdown to us, and we can kinda be like, oh, this is really cool. And, also, I'm picking up this thing and that thing and kind of going at it from a a show level as well of looking at, like, what's the concept here? Why does the concept work? Why does this host? Like, what is it about them that makes them the perfect host for this topic?

Jeremy: 47:56

And I think that there's so much that we could get into that it's one thing to look at shows who are kind of on this bubble trying to break through like we do with the roasts, but there's this whole other side and different things that are going to come out when you look at shows that have already broken through and built up an audience and are are much more successful. And so it's almost the inverse of the roast in some way or the natural complement. So I there's a lot to like about that idea too. So, secretly, I'm kind of, you know, rooting that we get to that one, sooner or later at some point.

Justin: 48:23

Yeah. And it has elements of song explorer. It has elements of reaction videos, which are very popular. Yep. And I think it's also very shareable.

Justin: 48:32

So if we're talking about designing a show that is shareable, like people would be sharing clips, or it would be easy for us to showcase some clips on social media and have people being interested in it, This show lends itself to those kinds of things. I think it could actually grow bigger and faster than the show here that we did.

Jeremy: 48:52

Yeah. I think that it's really important as a creator to be embedded in the broader, larger kind of creative world and being able to pick up on some of these meta trends because you mentioned the reaction videos which is something that I was also kind of thinking about of, like, oh, this fits into this category of a type of content that is already successful and popular and we know people like and it's just bringing a new spin on that. And there's also these elements of Song Exploder, another successful show. And so I think keeping in mind when you're developing concepts like what else is already popular that I know people like consuming this kind of content and how could I create something that is original, and it's, like, a refreshing take or application of that format.

Justin: 49:30

The other thing I like about this show is that it has a 40 minute version that would be the podcast. It has a 10 minute version that could be the YouTube video, and it has a 60 second version that could be TikTok and Reels. Like, let's break down why this Yeah. Particular thing works. And then it's just a 60 second summary.

Justin: 49:46

It has a lot of things going for it. The 3rd idea now that we've described those 2 and I've expressed so much excitement, this 3rd idea might not be as exciting. But I think it actually has a lot going for it in the sense that it would be a natural extension to the show, and it would also be the easiest to produce. We've just called this 15 minute podcast riff, which is a 15 minute show where we just bring up some of these things that we got really excited about often on the human side of podcasting. Like, when should you quit doing a show?

Justin: 50:21

Yeah. That could be a great 15 minute topic where we could get vulnerable, where we could have some emotion, but it's just you and I showing up every week with just something that we've like, you know what? This week, I wanna talk about how bad DAI ads are. And so we just riff on that topic for 15 minutes. Like, these ads are they're not normalized properly.

Justin: 50:44

There's a show that it's basically for a a certain audience in podcasting. And the other day, I heard, like, a Twix ad on it. It's like, what

Jeremy: 50:53

Oh.

Justin: 50:53

What are people doing here? So I feel like we could riff on topics that are kind of in the mix in the community. They would be very in the moment, because we could react in real time. Like, if all of a sudden, you know, thousands of people are being laid off at the big podcast companies, we could talk about that. But we could also talk about these topics that people care about.

Justin: 51:15

Another 15 minute podcast riff could be, how are people really making money on podcasts? And just have a good solid 15 minutes of you and I going back and forth little bit more raw, a little bit more off the cuff, a little bit more uncensored, and just, like, kind of having these free flowing discussions, but keeping them to about 15 minutes.

Jeremy: 51:36

I like this one because I think most of the time, I tend to gravitate to evergreen content. So almost everything I create, I have in mind from the start. Like, I don't want to be on this hamster wheel of constantly needing to put out fresh content and I I kinda wanna just be building out my body of work. But that kinda comes at the trade off of there are all these topics that are kind of timely and relevant right now that I just kind of ignore. And so this is a format where we could get into some of those things and I think they're more immediately useful to a lot of people.

Jeremy: 52:06

And I think the show has a lot of potential for growth as well, especially on YouTube where I think we can keep these to, you know, 10 or 15 minutes, be much more concise and be much more targeted around very specific questions that we know people are asking. And looking at the stats from this season, our easily best performing episode was the episode called does social media actually lead to podcast growth or something along those lines. And that episode was so closely aligned with the question that was on everybody's mind that it's no surprise to me that that was our highest performing episode by far. And so that's something that I think we could much more easily manufacture with this show Absolutely. Where we can start with questions that we know people are asking or are thinking about but haven't verbalized yet that we're kinda sensing out there and just kinda speak to those and have a kinda concise, short, 15 minute digestible episode which was something that from our our listener feedback survey, we know there is an audience for where, you know, there's people who listen to our hour long episodes here, but there's a significant number of people who specifically asked for shorter, more digestible episodes, kind of, very actionable addressing a specific topic.

Jeremy: 53:11

So I I think that this is a great episode format as well and, is something that there is potential in a way that is part of me thinks it's, like, equal potential to the other ones or maybe even more in some ways. It's like each of these shows has its own kind of promise and its own opportunities, and they all do quite different jobs, which is interesting.

Justin: 53:32

I think also the attraction to this format would be, like, you're at a podcast conference or a meetup, and everybody's at the bar, and then somebody turns to you and goes, Jeremy, give me the real goods. Like, how are podcasters making money? And just to have, like, a no bullshit, like, just 15 minutes, like, okay. Like, I'll be completely candid with you. This is how people are really making money, and this is how many of them there are.

Justin: 54:00

This is what they had to do to get there. This is how much they like their lives.

Jeremy: 54:04

You

Justin: 54:04

know? Like, you could just get into all that. And there's something about that that, you know, if someone's sharing their car ride with us, it has more of that feel of, like, 2 people in a car talking and saying, you know, just give it to me straight, dude. Like, when should I quit my podcast? Like, should I quit doing this?

Justin: 54:23

Yeah. And to have a honest discussion about that topic. And it it kind of highlights one of podcast's strengths, which is it's an honest space. You know, let's be honest here. Let's be real here.

Jeremy: 54:35

Yeah. I think there's there's potential there, but we're not actually going to make up our minds quite yet on this episode. We've teased some kinda show ideas here, but we would love to get your feedback, you as a listener to the show. So we are going to have a link in the show notes for this episode where we can collect some feedback on each of these show ideas that we have presented as well as you'll have the opportunity to submit your own ideas of things that you would like to hear us riff on. Maybe those are individual episodes.

Jeremy: 55:02

Maybe those are questions you have. Maybe it's a show concept that you wanna pitch to us and say, like, I think you guys should do this show. And so, you can find the link in the show notes for this episode and you can kinda fill out the form there. Upvote some of your favorite ideas that other people have submitted or that we have submitted and kind of help us shape the direction of potentially this show, potentially another show, potentially all of these shows maybe. Who knows?

Jeremy: 55:24

Probably we're not gonna commit to those all at once. But, you know, down the line over the next couple of years, maybe we work our way through these 1 by 1.

Justin: 55:30

Yeah. I'd I'm really excited to hear from people. I wanna know what they think about these ideas and which one they like the best, which one they say they would listen to.

Jeremy: 55:39

And as we have mentioned previously, we will be back for another season of this show. And so when the podcast marketing trends 20 24 report drops, we are going to be back with a whole new swath of data to dig through and see how it compares to the previous year. And there are a bunch of new questions and insights that are going to come out of this report that, I am personally very excited to dig into some of the stuff that wasn't, explored on the initial report that I think is going to be very interesting, for everyone else going forward when it comes to the marketing of your show. So to everybody who has listened, stuck with us through this season, whether this is your first episode of the season or you've been with us from the start, I would just like to say, you know, thank you so much for for sticking with us and for sharing the show. If you are one of those people who has been sharing the show, as we've heard many people, have been seeing that on Twitter and LinkedIn, And people just, got multiple emails, in the past couple days, even people saying they're recommending the show to everyone.

Jeremy: 56:30

We super, super appreciate that.

Justin: 56:32

Yeah. Thanks, everybody. Don't go anywhere. We'll see you here on this feed for season 2.