Jeremy: 00:01

People have jobs that they need done in their life, and so they hire content to do those jobs for them.

Justin: 00:08

Your podcast is one of those things, and you just need to think about how am I gonna get people to hire this show, this episode.

Jeremy: 00:16

The thing that people are coming to get is the problem that they want solved, but then they keep coming back because there's something sticky about the show emotionally.

Justin: 00:23

Being a pure problem solver, even though it kinda makes sense practically, I think you're gonna miss what makes podcasting so great.

Jeremy: 00:36

So, Justin, I want you to picture yourself. It's a random Wednesday morning, and you're about to walk down from your house to the office, and you're gonna listen to a podcast on the way. Let's just say that five shows that you subscribe to have all released new episodes in the past couple days since you listened. Walk me through the mental thought process. How do you decide which show you're gonna listen to?

Justin: 00:57

It's different whether I'm walking to the office or walking home from the office. When usually when I'm walking to the office, I want something to help inspire me for the work I'm about to do. I wanna get in that kind of work mindset. I wanna be thinking about markets or ways I could improve the business or maybe having two founders talk about their journey. And it serves to get me amped up for the day, give me ideas, give me things I want to talk to the team about.

Jeremy: 01:33

So Okay.

Justin: 01:34

Yeah. Often I'm choosing stuff that's related to work and business and giving me insight into all those things.

Jeremy: 01:44

And then, how does that differ from on the walk home?

Justin: 01:46

Walk home, it's like help me, not deflate from the day, help me calm down from the day, help me prepare myself for home. Usually, these are more often maybe a solo podcast or a duo that's kind of comforting, maybe more personal, maybe they talk more about family and home. Sometimes it might be about current affairs, like maybe something crazy has happened in the world, and I just want a voice of reason to help me make sense of, you know, the the crazy world we live in. So, yeah. Usually, it's more calming when I'm on my way home, or it could be entertaining as well.

Justin: 02:29

Just like, I wanna unravel a bit.

Jeremy: 02:32

Okay. So, basically, it sounds to me like you described, one of our favorite nerdy concepts, which is jobs to be done theory, which we have referenced, a number of times, not every episode, but almost every episode of this show, podcast marketing trends explained, and also our other show, roast my podcast. Mhmm. It comes up quite a bit in there as well. But we've never actually done a super deep dive on what jobs to be done theory is, how it applies to podcasting, how it applies to the decisions that we all make as consumers each and every day.

Jeremy: 03:04

And there's actually that a lot that I think we can learn as creators about you know, the more we understand why our listeners might be reaching for a show like ours, the better we can align our marketing with that. So, in this episode, we're gonna dig into some of the details of what this theory is, how we can put it to use for ourselves, in our marketing. That sound good to you?

Justin: 03:24

Yeah. Sounds great. I think this is crucial to understand this concept. It's simple as a concept, but its ramifications are quite deep. So I think the more people can think with this paradigm, the better they'll be able to craft their shows and the pitch for their shows.

Jeremy: 03:41

Okay. So maybe before we dive into any of the data here, I'm curious if you could just give the kind of general overview of, like, what is jobs to be done theory?

Justin: 03:51

Jobs to be done is big picture, and it encapsulates why a podcast listener or a consumer will buy a product. What are all the reasons that lead somebody to choosing a podcast and then continuing to listen to a podcast? And in the business world, this has been used to describe why people buy products, and why they continue to use products. It was popularized by Harvard researcher Clayton Christensen. He came up with the innovator's dilemma, and he wrote a book on this called Competing Against Luck, which is very good.

Justin: 04:26

But, yeah, generally, it describes, you know, what are the reasons, and they're often emotional reasons, why do people choose one product over another? Why do they choose one podcast over another? Why do they choose one podcast episode over another?

Jeremy: 04:41

The thing when we're talking about, like, jobs to be done here, essentially, at the root of this theory is that people have needs or they have jobs that they need done in their life. And so they, quote, unquote, hire products, podcasts, content to do those jobs for them. And so they, you know, want to feel a certain way as we've kind of talked about Justin walking to, work in the morning. He wants to feel a certain way, so he reaches for a certain podcast. He hires that podcast to get him in the mindset for work.

Jeremy: 05:08

Whereas on the way home, then he hires a different podcast to help him transition out of work and into home life. And so if you start looking at your own behavior about why you reach for certain podcasts or open certain newsletters or make any decision in your life, usually, it's like there's some desire to feel a certain way, and so we reach for a tool to help us achieve that thing. And you could look at we treat food that way. You think of any kind of, like, substances, drugs, alcohol, anything. Like, we are reaching for something to make us feel a certain way, reaching for a tool to do a job for us.

Jeremy: 05:39

And so this is kind of the the heart and soul of of jobs to be done. So Mhmm. This was actually one of the questions that I was curious about this year going into the report, was basically trying to understand, like, what are the jobs to be done of the shows who submitted their data, to the podcast marketing trends report, and what can we see from that data in terms of, like, the growth potential of shows? Were there a certain type of job that high growth shows tended to cluster around versus low growth shows? And so, basically, we got everybody to submit their shows.

Jeremy: 06:10

And, basically, one by one, I went through the show descriptions of all of these shows and the the title and cover art and all the packaging, and I basically assigned, each show a category of the general job that it does. And so there are basically four kind of broad categories here that I classify the shows into. And so the first is problem solver. And so that's, you know, pretty obvious here. It's a show that purports to, make your life better in some way and so maybe help you get in better shape or help improve your finances or learn x, y, or z or whatever that might be.

Jeremy: 06:39

Problem solvers are pretty clear, you know, what the show is promising to the listeners. The other kind of broad category is pleasure giver. A lot of times we think about education versus entertainment, but I think that this is actually a little bit of a better framing to use. It's like problem solver. It says, we will help you do this.

Jeremy: 06:57

There's, a defined outcome to listen to the show. Pleasure giver is a show that it just, like, makes you feel good in some way or help you kind of experience something. Like, maybe it lifts your mood, like, shows that put you to sleep. That's kind of a pleasure giver show because it's like, you're gonna be happier. It's more pleasing to be asleep than lying awake.

Jeremy: 07:13

And so it's it's something that is not a problem solver. So broad catch all turn here. And then I had a subcategory within that that is this kind of interesting show that almost straddles the two. And I would think of a show like Freakonomics or, any of, like, Malcolm Gladwell's work is kind of in this think piece type show where it's not really entertainment so much. You don't think about it as you listen to it to kind of get some kind of pleasure, but it's also not an explicit problem solver.

Jeremy: 07:41

Like, Ezra Klein is another example here. You're listening to it to get smarter, but it's not an end result of listening to this show. And so these are the the three kind of main categories there. ThinkPieces kind of under pleasure giver, and then the fourth category is unclear. And so there was a bunch of shows that the the really common giveaway here when I was going through the descriptions where the show description would say something like a conversation about topic.

Jeremy: 08:04

And

Justin: 08:06

you read that, and you're like,

Jeremy: 08:07

well, a conversation about writing. Okay. What does that mean? Does it help me be a better writer? Is it just to me to listen to, you know, authors talk about their writing?

Jeremy: 08:18

You know, that could be a very, like, a pleasure giving show. Do you feel like there's any kind of dominant show within those categories?

Justin: 08:25

So I I'll I'll say off the top that jobs to be done theory, there's some different facets to it, and some people gravitate to certain facets more than others. I tend to feel that jobs to be done are almost always emotional. They're giving you some sort of emotional benefit. Yeah, I think Pleasure Giver and Think Peace, I think those are the dominant for me personally. And even in the problem solving component, I'm feeling like there's still an emotional piece of that.

Justin: 09:01

Like this show, it's helping me understand how to run my business finances better. But it's also like making me feel a certain way. And that could just be, this show is entertaining. This show makes me feel like I have a voice. This show is giving a voice to something that's inside of me that I haven't been able to articulate.

Justin: 09:23

This show is reassuring me. This show is comforting me. So, there's an emotional component on these that I think that gives the show some resonance. Problem solving also, I think you see this mostly, like truly utilitarian problem solving. You see this more on YouTube than podcasts.

Justin: 09:45

Help me to fix my dryer. The primary thing that's pulling somebody is like, I need to fix this dryer. How do I fix my dryer? Done. Podcasts are In order to keep people coming back, because they're long form, they always need to be emotionally resonant in some way.

Justin: 10:03

And so, even if you had a podcast that was like home repair makeover, like you're gonna help people who don't like home repair to get better at it, There's gotta be something emotionally resonant about it. Like, you love the host, you love the way they make you feel, you love the way they encourage you, you love the person you're becoming as you're listening to the show, You love the journey that you're on, or you love the journey that the hosts are on. So that's some of what I'm thinking of as you're going through this.

Jeremy: 10:35

You know, I agree with you on that. And I think a lot of shows that want to position themselves or do position themselves as problem solvers often that that that is a viable way to position a show, and we're gonna look at some of the data here. But I think they often neglect the emotional needs that they're satisfying for listeners as well. And so I think if you can bring in multiple layers it's just a much stickier show where maybe the thing that people are coming to get is the problem that they want solved, but then they keep coming back because there's something sticky about the show emotionally where it's like, oh, maybe even after they solve the problem, they still keep listening to the show to get whatever that emotional need is.

Justin: 11:10

Yeah. And you know what this makes me think of is two things. One, these new AI generated Google Notebook or, podcasts NotebookLM. Those are often problem solving shows. Like, hey, let's have a conversation that kinda sounds human between two co hosts about a topic.

Justin: 11:30

Right? So let's talk about World War two, or let's talk about the North American free trade, or whatever it is. Sure. Yeah. They're giving you the information.

Justin: 11:41

But what I as I listened to those, what's missing is the emotional resonance and connection. It's like, if I'm gonna listen to Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway talk. Yep. Now, that could be just an LLM talking back and forth. But the reason I'm listening to them is because there's an emotional connection with them.

Justin: 12:05

Maybe I find Scott abrasive, and maybe I find Kara endearing. Maybe I followed Kara ever since she was at the Washington Post. There's these other emotionally resonant dynamics to that listener podcast relationship. And the other thing I think of is I've just recently started listening to some of Scott Galloway's stuff. And he has one show where he has a professional narrator read out kind of an essay.

Jeremy: 12:32

Mhmm.

Justin: 12:33

It's just kinda like dull. Where's the emotional connection? So being a pure problem solver, even though it kind of makes sense practically, like, it's like, oh, I'm just gonna solve people's problems, and I'm gonna give them the information in a professional narrated voice. You know, like, you could do all that, and I think you're gonna miss what makes podcasting so great.

Jeremy: 12:59

And, you know, we can maybe get into a conversation about the job that people hire podcasting to do in general, and we've actually touched on this in a previous episode this season. But let's get to some of the data here because I was so curious about this, and I have seen data related to book sales, related to the job to be done of the book. They didn't actually use the terminology job to be done, but it was basically the same thing. And I was curious if that carried over into into podcasting. And what we see here is that 48% of the shows, overall who submitted their data were I classified as problem solvers.

Jeremy: 13:33

And so they had clearly in the description something saying, basically, we'll help you do this. Listen to the show to learn this or to become better at this. So 48%, just under half. There was then 32% of the shows I classified as pleasure givers. 7% were think pieces, which kinda makes sense because that's a more, like, journalistic, often narrative show that is a little bit less accessible to most creators, a little bit harder to make, I think, a lot of times.

Jeremy: 13:59

Mhmm. And then there was 13% of shows were generally unclear. Clearly, like, problem solver was, by some margin, the biggest. Although if you count cluster together both Pleasure Giver and Think Piece, which is kind of a subset, that's 39%. So it's not that big a difference, and then 13% unclear.

Jeremy: 14:16

So that's the overall benchmarks. And then it got a little bit more interesting when I broke those down both by the growth rate of the shows and then the overall downloads of the shows. With the high growth rate shows and so these were shows that doubled their downloads over the course of a year. So something, you know, anybody would like to achieve. High growth shows were 10% more likely to be problem solvers than average.

Jeremy: 14:39

And so 58% of high growth shows, were classified as problem solvers versus 48 for the average. So, you know, we look at that and we see that it seems to suggest that, okay, if you wanna grow faster, then you should have a problem solver show whether you want to or not. But I think there's actually another even maybe more telling statistic here, which is the shows that underperformed the average were three times as likely to have an nonspecific unclear job to be done. And so there were shows that you read the description, and you're just kind of like, I don't know what this show is telling me it's going to do for me in any way. Is it going to entertain me?

Jeremy: 15:14

Is it going to help me learn something? And so those were were 17% of underperforming shows were unclear versus only 5% of shows that outperformed, the average growth rate. So, curious on your, like, reflections, thoughts on that in terms of, like, how shows position themselves.

Justin: 15:30

Yeah. I mean, I think the big takeaway here is asking, what is this show for? Is a good question. And I think layered on top is, how do I want this show to make people feel? Like, what's what feelings am I trying to invoke?

Justin: 15:49

Because what is this show for? You can kind of bullshit that. You can kind of say, well, this show is to help people accelerate their career growth. That's what it's What makes Jobs To Be Done different is you're actually looking at the real reasons that people choose a show. These are reasons that people might not articulate right away.

Justin: 16:13

You have to listen between the lines as to why they're choosing the show. And there's often multiple jobs being done, and they're almost always emotional at the same So, what is this show for? Sure. That's important. But then, what do I want people to feel?

Justin: 16:30

Yeah. And what feelings are going to help us to draw people in episode after episode? So sometimes people can go very pragmatic with jobs to be done. Again, this show is to help people accelerate their career growth. That's part of it.

Justin: 16:47

But really, a lot of this is like, no, the emotions connected to career growth. What do people need? They need encouragement. They need comfort. They need somebody that's going to give them the real, raw human existence of what it's like to look for a job, and how hard it is, and how debilitating it is to go from interview to interview.

Justin: 17:12

Like, that's the juice. That's what you want. And so, I think these unclear shows, they can just be very banal and general, like you've mentioned. Or they can have a purpose, this show is for this, but they haven't hit on that emotionally resonant piece. And Yeah.

Justin: 17:33

That's really what you wanna get.

Jeremy: 17:36

The other data that I looked at here was the jobs to be done broken down by download numbers, and so shows, over 10,000 downloads an episode, one to 10,000 downloads an episode, and less than 10,000 downloads an episode. Basically, the the categories of jobs we've are kinda split very similar to the overall averages. Except, again, we see that the shows with less than a thousand downloads were once again three times more likely to have a very unclear kind of sense of what the show is for. And the the one thing that I'll add here too is that this is based on the descriptions of the shows, which oftentimes have not been updated in years. And so it's totally possible that many of these shows actually do have clear jobs to be done that a listener could articulate, having listened to show or that the host could articulate, but it hasn't been updated in the packaging, which I think is still, you know, something that we need to be thinking about.

Jeremy: 18:24

I agree a % with you on the emotional nature of listening to podcasts and and that being the core reason I reach for any show at any given time. It's because I want to feel a certain way typically. Mhmm. But I will say that there are almost these two stages of jobs to be done where oftentimes people will seek out a show because they want a problem solved. And so Mhmm.

Jeremy: 18:45

I have certainly signed up for shows in the past and subscribed to them because I'm looking to learn how to do this thing better. And the thing that we might get into here in a second is that oftentimes, I might test out five different shows on that topic. And so I am looking to have a problem solved, but then one show sticks with me because it has that emotional kind of undercurrent to it that pulls me in. Mhmm. And so and the other ones don't have that or, you know, it's just not aligned with me.

Jeremy: 19:11

And so I think the problem with messaging the emotional jobs to be done in your description and in your marketing is that it often like, it's be it's kind of bland and generic and universal. Like, we all kind of want a lot of the same emotional things. And so it's like you want to message more of some of the actionable kind of jobs to be done in the description and the outward facing packaging that a first time person is coming across this, you can't tell them, like, this show is gonna make you feel seen and warm and, like, like, you're part of a community because you gotta experience it to feel that. And a lot of shows have messaging that's somewhat aligned with that. And it's like, yeah.

Jeremy: 19:46

Right. You and everybody else. But once you listen, you're like, oh, it actually does do that. And so Yeah. There has to be something believable, a promise that is maybe more functional in the description, and then there is the emotional job to be unsatisfied on the inside.

Justin: 19:59

Yeah. This is actually one of the reasons it's sad that not every podcast app has written reviews, because often, the written review is what is helping people decide. When they read the slogan or the description or the title, it's like, okay, that's what's on the tin. But then they read the reviews, and they're like, oh, this is how this show makes people feel. You know?

Justin: 20:24

So Yeah. Those can often work in tandem. People should actually be highlighting their best review in their descriptions more often. I think you could take a one line, in quotation marks thing. If someone has articulated what the show is, and why it's resonant better than you ever could, just put that in quotation marks at the beginning, or the middle, or the end of your description.

Justin: 20:46

You can communicate some of these elements through your show art, through your title, through your description. But often, what where jobs to be done really comes in, is what are all the emotional triggers that led someone to choosing your show in the first place? And then, what are all the emotional reasons that they keep coming back? But that actual decision point, if they're basing it on description, title, cover art, that's a little bit different. Right?

Justin: 21:16

You're gonna have to use other levers to draw them in.

Jeremy: 21:20

Okay. So we're gonna talk about how the specific category of job that your show does is going to influence, the way that you market your show in a minute. But first, let's dig a little bit further into the actual, like, core ideas behind jobs to be done. One of the main ideas behind jobs to be done is this idea of unmet needs, And we can use the word needs kind of interchangeably with desires. And so people have some kind of need or desire to feel a certain way.

Jeremy: 21:46

And those, as you've kinda mentioned, they can be functional, but more often, there's a heavy emotional component as well. And so, we've already listed a few, but, like, what are some of the maybe, like, functional and or emotional needs that you can think of that a podcast might solve?

Justin: 22:00

Probably the main functional job of a podcast is entertain me while I drive to work. I just need something to occupy my brain while I'm doing that commute. And there's an emotional component to that as well. But the deeper emotional job there might be, sure, entertain me during my commute. But also, help me, like, inspire me on, like, ways I could live my life better.

Justin: 22:28

Or, show me how I might think about my relationships at work differently than I am right now.

Jeremy: 22:35

Yeah.

Justin: 22:36

Yeah. So often, there's like this broader functional purpose, but then there's this emotional component that's deeper down that you gotta find.

Jeremy: 22:45

I think it's interesting as an exercise. I know I listen to multiple shows on, you know, the same broad topic overall. And so over the past year, I've listened to probably five different shows on some variety of writing. I reach for different shows at different times because some of them are much more expansive. And it's like, it's not so tactical and in the weeds.

Jeremy: 23:06

Like, that's not the emotional experiencing, that I'm wanting right then. And so it's like, just wanna be stewing in general writing conversations that are a little bit higher level. And, and so I think that anybody who listens to multiple shows on the same topic can probably start to pick apart, like, why do I listen to one show over another at different times? And maybe you notice that there are times of day where it's, like, it's going to the office versus from the office where you reach for one or the other. And I think that for me, thinking about the way that you make decisions and just observing that in yourself is one of the best things that you can do to improve your ability as a marketer.

Jeremy: 23:39

Because now you understand, like, oh, if I make decisions like this, other people make decisions like this too. And the better I understand, like, how my brain works and how different, shows slot into my day and the way that I make decisions around, you know, what I reach for, then I'm gonna be able to position my show, to better appeal to the people who are probably looking for something like that.

Justin: 23:57

Mhmm. And I actually have a good example now that I think will help us clarify some of these thoughts. So I have someone in my family who has dyslexia. So I started seeking out resources around dyslexia, found this podcast called Sold a Story. I had this functional thing.

Justin: 24:14

Like, I'm trying to figure out, you know, responses to dyslexia, all these sorts of things. But what kept me engaged in the show was how the show made me feel. Like, wow, it's uncovering this deep problem with our education system. It's helping me feel seen and heard. It's helping the person in my family who has dyslexia.

Justin: 24:38

It's helping them to be heard as well, and helping me understand their emotions. That was the resonant emotional job that it was doing for me. So there's this high level functional need. Yes, I'm trying to get information on this. I'm trying to figure out an approach, a response.

Justin: 24:57

But what kept me coming back was how it made me feel. And I think as we move into this next thing, we can talk about the series of events that happens in a decision. I think you'll really see that at play in that example.

Jeremy: 25:11

You know, that makes me think that, you know, your functional need here was to understand dyslexia better. And so it's possible that there is a show that is hyperacademic PhDs on dyslexia, and it's like, that fulfills that functional job you're seeking out, but it does nothing for that emotional need. It should do the job, but it's not actually doing it in the way that is you're appealing to you.

Justin: 25:30

That's right.

Jeremy: 25:31

And so I think that that there's there's the second kind of piece of jobs to be done that is interesting, which comes down to how we compare different options. And so I think one of the things that we're all familiar with is we have some need for something in our life. We feel some lack or we're we have a desire, and so we start looking for options. It's not just like, I have this need, and that's the thing for me. In general, we say, okay.

Jeremy: 25:53

I wanna learn podcast marketing, and I'm gonna see if there's any podcasts on that. And so you might search podcast marketing, podcast growth into Spotify or YouTube or wherever, And maybe our show comes up, and maybe there are five to 10 other shows that come up. And so, essentially, in jobs to be done, there's this trigger event is the thing that people will talk about kicks it all off. So a lot of times, you'll have some realization or maybe something changes in your life that now sets you off looking for, you know, a solution to that problem. Mhmm.

Jeremy: 26:21

And so after the trigger event, there is a initial consideration set. And so this is when you search in Spotify, and you're like, hey. There's 10 shows on podcast marketing. Any one of these could potentially help me grow my show. Which one am I gonna subscribe to?

Jeremy: 26:34

And so that next phase is called the active evaluation phase. And so this might be where you actually click into a bunch of them. You read the descriptions. You look at the episode titles. Maybe you listen to the teasers.

Jeremy: 26:44

And, eventually, you come to a solution and you say, okay. I'm gonna try this one. And so this here is the decision point. And if it's a paid product, this would be the purchase. If it's a podcast, it's maybe you click play on a show and you commit to listening through it.

Jeremy: 26:59

And so here, a lot of us think, great. The job's done. We've, like, won a new listener over, but this is actually only halfway through the process. And so after you've clicked play on an episode or you've made the decision to engage with whatever the the content is or the product is, then we get into the post decision evaluation. And so now you've made the purchase, you've spent the time on the show, and you're thinking, is this going to actually solve the job that I need done?

Jeremy: 27:24

And if you feel confident that it is, then probably you're just gonna stick with that thing. But as in many situations we've all experienced, you've, you know, bought a course that didn't help you do whatever the course promised it was gonna do, or you listen to a podcast that didn't satisfy the emotional need that you had. Now you actually go back to the start of the cycle, and you go back to that initial consideration set, you say, maybe one of these other shows will do a better job of that for me. And so you keep going through that cycle until you end on something that actually fulfills the job. So this is the kind of overall cycle that we all are going through in, you know, dozens of different areas of our lives every single day.

Justin: 27:57

Yeah. We need to pay a lot of attention to the triggering event, because that really informs how we can draw listeners in in these subsequent steps. So, I think there's kind of two types of this. There's In my case with dyslexia, this family member has been struggling with it for a long time, so there's this slow burn of just talking to this person, and hearing their frustration, and just that's always going on in the background. But then the triggering event, in this case, if I'm remembering it correctly, was seeing a post on social media from the reporter who was involved in the podcast.

Justin: 28:37

And it was just enough to like, Oh, wow. That's interesting. And then followed the rabbit hole down to, Okay. Well, in my initial consideration set, it was just like, here's this podcast, and am I going to try this out? Active evaluation, clicked play, and then immediately, they set up the emotionally resonant part right away, which is schools in North America have been not paying attention to the real research behind how kids learn to read, and we're going to uncover the truth.

Justin: 29:14

I'm in. Yeah. It's emotionally resonant, and then, you know, I made that decision to listen to the episode because they they hooked me, and then I just keep listening more and more and more. So the whole thing about trigger event is there's things going on in people's lives, and sometimes you just need to break through the noise and say, hey, if this is going on in your life, like if you've ever felt this way, or if you're thinking about this, or you're stressed about this, or you want to achieve this, here's a show for you. Another type of triggering event, which is like, The United States is applying some tariffs on Canada and Mexico.

Justin: 29:53

Immediately, you are seeking out information on how is this going to affect me. So this is like a news story. And so in that case, you might, you know, search for a bunch of shows, and then you're picking something. And maybe, you know, in that case, the triggering event was somebody recommended the show to you. So you're talking around the water cooler about tariffs, and they say, you know what?

Justin: 30:15

This show really helped me understand the whole backdrop to this. It's like, oh, okay. I'll I'll check that out. So understanding the backdrop in people's lives and, you know, how that forms a foundation for the decisions they're gonna make, and then understanding these triggering events are really important for marketing.

Jeremy: 30:34

And I think there's a few other ways that trigger events can be used in marketing. I think, you know, for some shows, the when you talked about dyslexia, I've come across several, shows related to ADHD. And especially because we're currently in a wave of awareness around adult diagnosed ADHD. And so I've seen a lot of shows. I've done some audits for clients where basically the messaging or the description of the show meets people where they're at based on the trigger event.

Jeremy: 31:00

And so it's like, have you been diagnosed as an adult with ADHD? And so the show knows that you have probably recently found out that you have ADHD, and now you're looking for resources on that. And so the show has positioned itself perfectly to meet you where you're at, which is a different show than somebody who was diagnosed as a child and has always known this. That's probably two totally different shows, but the one is appealing to its audience based on that trigger event right there and is is meeting them there. And, like, some shows have very easily understandable and and noticeable trigger events.

Jeremy: 31:32

And so any, like, new parenting show. Like, you just had a baby. There's a massive trigger event that your life has changed forever, and you need to learn a whole bunch of new stuff. And you probably also need some emotional support as well. Mhmm.

Jeremy: 31:44

And so some shows can, you know, speak to that much more acutely. A show like ours is a little bit different. I've wondered in my business for a long time, I've tried to figure out what are the trigger events that set somebody off looking for services like mine. And I have some guesses at things that could be in the mix there. And so I think a lot of times, you know, I work with people who have been producing their shows for a while already.

Jeremy: 32:08

And so it's not like they decided to start a podcast, now they're looking for a podcast host, which would be, you know, one of Transistor's trigger events. It's like, hey. I'm starting a podcast. Now I need to go find out all the stuff I need to do. I need to buy the mic.

Jeremy: 32:18

I need to get podcast hosting. Whatever.

Justin: 32:21

Yeah.

Jeremy: 32:21

For me, I've often thought it's probably something like I have a milestone episode where maybe I reached episode 200, and my downloads are still at, like, 200 downloads an episode. And I'm like, you're you're reevaluating this. Like, okay. You reached a milestone. Things aren't where they are.

Jeremy: 32:35

And so it's now it's like, okay. I gotta really do something different. It could also be kind of like I've been doing the show for a year, and things aren't as good as I hope. And so that's kind of a little bit where I think about my services, and I think a show like this is more positioned for people who it's like, okay. I've been doing this a while.

Jeremy: 32:49

There's not maybe a distinct trigger. It's maybe more there's a nagging feeling, and then there's a trigger maybe where somebody else, like, mentions the show and they're like, it clicks with them, and they're like, oh, maybe I need to take that approach to my show and learn more about the data marketing side of things. And so it's can be difficult to understand that trigger, but I think it's worth trying to think through it.

Justin: 33:08

Yeah. And in that case, you could use some of that terminology in your pitch. Do you have a nagging feeling that your show is underperforming, that it could be doing a lot higher downloads, that the show is better than your audience size. Well, I help people like you all the time, and this is a show, or this is a service that helps. So, I think tapping into I've used this example before, but I think a lot of stand up comedy is just articulating things that people are feeling that they've never heard articulated before.

Justin: 33:46

And I think a lot of good marketing does that as well. It articulates these nagging feelings, And then when we see it as a slogan or a headline, we go, oh, thank you. This reminds me of there's that podcast called Bad With Money. You know? It just, like, perfectly encapsulates this thing.

Justin: 34:05

Like, I just feel like I'm bad with money. I'm terrible at it. And then a show comes out that's, like, bad with money. It's, like, perfectly addresses this nagging feeling that you have.

Jeremy: 34:16

That's a great example because somebody who self identifies as bad with money, they probably have a bunch of scenarios that happen every day, maybe every week, however often, where they tell themselves, I'm just so bad with money. I missed the bill payment or, you know, whatever happened. There's all these little trigger events, and then they see a show that speaks to them saying bad with money, and they're like, oh, that thing was made for me.

Justin: 34:40

Mhmm. And there could also be these triggering events can be, like, incredibly dramatic. These moments where it's like, that's it. I'm done. I'm going to solve this problem today.

Justin: 34:52

And I think someone like Dave Ramsey really benefits from So, you have credit card debt, and you've just seen your debt go up and up and up, and then maybe you just had a number in your head like, it can't go past this. And then it hits like 50 ks, and you're like, oh my God, that's it. I'm making a decision. I'm gonna go find Dave Ramsey. He is the guy that helps people like me.

Justin: 35:17

I'm gonna solve this problem. I think understanding that can also be powerful too, these kind of oh shit moments that overcome all of the friction somebody might have had before.

Jeremy: 35:28

Yeah. So there's one more trigger event that I think is specifically relevant to more of these pleasure giver, specifically entertainment style shows. We're gonna save that because we're gonna get to, how do we market based on the type of show that we have. But first, I wanna talk a little bit about how listeners interact differently at some of the dynamics that are at play with these different types of shows. And I think the the first thing that really comes to mind for me with problem solver shows, one of the things they benefit from is there's often this additional sense of urgency that works for you as a creator.

Jeremy: 36:02

Yeah. And so people are already seeking out something, and they are going to pick a solution. And so it might not be your show, but they are they have made the decision. They're like, okay. I need to solve this problem.

Jeremy: 36:11

I'm going to look for a podcast that promises to do that for me, and then I'm gonna pick one, and I'm gonna listen to it. And maybe I'm gonna sample a few, but I am going to find a podcast to help me do this thing when maybe I'm also gonna be subscribing to YouTube channels and reading books. But, like, I am in search of solutions, and so, you know, they're in a an attention spending mode on that topic. And so I think that's one of the reasons that problem solver shows or shows that position itself that way. They're a little bit sharper in terms of their ability to market themselves, I think.

Jeremy: 36:40

And I think there's also generally not so much competition in that category where, like, promising to do any kind of one job, if it's really broad, like, help you get in shape, okay, there's a lot of shows there. But you can look at very niche jobs that need to be done, and there might be five to 10 shows. And so the competition is much smaller versus, like, entertain me Mhmm. Which is like, okay, infinite content out there in the world. And so Yeah.

Jeremy: 37:04

I think that's something that's worth keeping in mind with those problem solver shows that they do have an advantage there. Anything else that comes to mind in terms of, like, the dynamics at play with problem solvers versus pleasure givers?

Justin: 37:16

I just think it's very clear in this context why people might choose a podcast over other mediums. So this is where jobs to be done really when we look at just different mediums really comes into play. So I've got a problem to solve, and I could choose a YouTube video, a book, or a podcast. And Mhmm. Problem is I don't have enough time in my day.

Justin: 37:41

So, I'm trying to figure out how am I going to cover this additional material, but I don't have any more time in my day. The only thing I have is a one hour commute every day. Well, can't use YouTube, because that's visual. Can't use a book, because that's also visual, unless they go audiobook. But podcasts, this just fits into my life.

Justin: 38:00

I can listen to podcasts, and solve this problem while I'm driving. People marketing their podcasts can bring this into their marketing more often than they do. Like, we know you could go and do a bunch of research in some books. But that's gonna take you hours. We've synthesized it all.

Justin: 38:22

You don't have time to read the trade publications every day. But you do have thirty minutes while you're walking to work every day. Why don't you let us read out the trade publications to you? And that can become part of your pitch. So understanding where your listeners or potential listeners might be getting other information, like what else is competing for their attention, and go, well, hey.

Justin: 38:45

Here's why this format is better.

Jeremy: 38:48

Another thing that comes to mind for me in terms of the category of job here, specifically with problem solvers, there's some benefits here that, you know, that's a little bit sharper in terms of their messaging sometimes. But I think there's a downside that actually problem solvers probably should expect higher churn. And, like, every show's gonna have churn, but I think it's almost like the better the show is at solving the problem, the faster it's gonna lose listeners. And so it's kind of this catch 22 a little bit where it's like, yeah, if you are promising to deliver on a job for listeners, you actually want to help them do that thing, but then you have to actually expect that you're gonna lose all those listeners or or a significant percentage of them. So I think that's another dynamic here.

Jeremy: 39:26

You know, you could also argue that a lot of those shows that are problem solvers are connected to businesses, which may have another method of solving the problem, which, again, can lead to churn because people sign up for the product or service, which is actually what you want, but then they stop listening to the podcast because they're now getting it in higher resolution elsewhere. So I think that's another kind of interesting side effect here.

Justin: 39:46

Yeah. That's the nature of all of this. It's like, whether in business or in podcasting or in television or whatever, it's like people finish Breaking Bad, and it's like, what's our options here? Well, we've optimized for people to rewatch it. We've also created a new show called Better Call Saul that people can go to next.

Justin: 40:06

So you have options there, but it's something to think about strategically. Like, okay, is this the kind of show people could listen to over and over again? There's some series I've listened to Yep. Over and over again. Is this the kind of show we can once they're done this piece, we give them the next step in another series?

Justin: 40:25

So there's this nice funnel into the next thing. So, yeah, you can think strategically about this.

Jeremy: 40:30

The last thing that, comes to mind for this in terms of the differences in engagement between the two kind of major categories is I think the bar for quality is actually much lower on problem solvers. If you are purely promising that the show is designed to solve a problem, as long as you can solve the problem effectively, your production does not need to be amazing. And probably there's a whole bunch of other attributes that you can not be so great at as long as you're getting people results because that's what you're promising and that's what they're coming for. Whereas I think with pleasure giver shows, you get into more entertainment. Now you're in this pool of the best entertainment in the world, which is how do you compete with that?

Jeremy: 41:08

And I think that's where we get into there are still niching is still a thing. There are still genres that you can position your show within so that you're not just competing with anyone and everything.

Justin: 41:17

I think this is one of the big problems that people make when they're conceptualizing a show. It's like, so who are you competing with here? You're competing with Mel Robbins? You're competing with

Jeremy: 41:29

Mhmm.

Justin: 41:29

Joe Rogan? Okay. That's gonna be hard. They can do the three guys talking on the couch way better than you can.

Jeremy: 41:37

Now I'm glad you brought up, Mel Robbins and Joe Rogan because that actually transitions into our our kinda last segment here of how do you think about marketing the different types of shows. And, you know, one of the common complaints that you hear from podcasters, which is, I think, warranted, is that most marketing advice tends to be geared towards more educational style shows, which this functional kind of job to be done. And it's usually because, like, that's just it's so clear. Like, people are looking for a problem that they have to be solved, and so you can position your show that way. And it's it's it is a lot easier to market that.

Jeremy: 42:08

There's actually a couple fewer steps in the process.

Justin: 42:11

Mhmm. It's not

Jeremy: 42:11

to say that you can't market a show that is more of a pleasure giver, and we're gonna talk about that here. But, you know, as I've been thinking about, you know, these different types of shows, there's actually you realize some advantages that pleasure giver shows have that problem solvers don't have, and there's also some disadvantages. So I figured we'd start out with with some of these advantages and opportunities of each type of show. And so I think one of the the first big opportunities for Pleasure Givers is that while the competition is higher, there's actually a much bigger potential audience. And so I actually, went through this morning in today's Apple Podcast top 50 shows, and I categorized these based on our kinda two broad categories here.

Jeremy: 42:54

There's a bunch of think pieces in here that I just left in the Pleasure Giver. But, basically, of the top 50 shows, there are five that I would classify as problem solvers. Mhmm. And Mel Robbins is one of those. And if you read the first sentence of her description, it's basically like, this show will help you live a better life.

Jeremy: 43:10

It's something like that. And so it's promising that it's gonna make your life better. Yeah. The other shows here, we've got, Huberman Lab, Diary of a CEO, On Purpose with Jay Shetty, and the Ultimate Human, is the other one. And so those are kind of the five that I classified as problem solvers.

Jeremy: 43:26

And then everything else is basically a pleasure giver. And so you think most media that exists is designed to be a pleasurable experience in some way. And so there is a unmatched audience, on that side of things. And so I think that that is certainly a benefit that while the competition is higher, so is the growth potential in most cases.

Justin: 43:46

Yeah. Just remember, you gotta really consider what arena you're walking into. The better approach for most folks is to say, well, I'm solving a problem, but I'm also going to make this entertaining. So I'm gonna merge these two together. That's where most of us can play.

Justin: 44:03

Right? Like, the truth is is that a lot of these problem solving shows are boring. So how are you going to make it more engaging? How are you going to up the quality bar? Because given the choice between two shows, it could be that people prefer something that's better quality, better produced, funnier, better edited.

Justin: 44:23

So, there's a way of competing there by, getting those serotonin and dopamine levels up.

Jeremy: 44:30

A couple other things that come to mind as actually benefits or opportunities for pleasure giver shows that do not exist for problem solvers is that, for one, they don't feel like work. And so, you know, we got this feedback on our show when we did our listener survey in last season that some people said, like, yeah. You know, I wanna listen, but it just feels like work to me. And so, like, that's a kind of headwind against us in marketing this show that there's people who are in our target audience who just, like, they think about this stuff enough during the day, and they're like, yeah. I can't be bothered to do that in my walk home from work time now.

Jeremy: 45:02

And so, you know, that's something that can work against problem solving shows. But I think the other big one, and this gets back to that comment that I made around an additional trigger that is really interesting for pleasure givers, specifically with limited series, is that people who listeners who listen to a lot of limited series show, and so I think about, like, true crime or anything like that, you finish one series, and now you're immediately that's the trigger to seek out the next thing. And so my wife, Kelly, is very much this type of listener who has listened through every show in a broad kind of genre. And so she's always like, I can't find any good new shows. Like, she's listened through all of them because she listens constantly.

Jeremy: 45:39

And so with problem solvers, people are often seeking out content, but so are people who listen to pleasure giving shows a lot of times

Justin: 45:46

Yeah.

Jeremy: 45:46

Where they, like, finish the show, and then it's like, okay. What's up next? What's up next? And so that's actually something that you can plug into with pleasure giving shows. And I think because there are more shows, I would say, in general out in public, it wasn't really in the survey, but I think my audience is a bit skewed more to the problem solver side.

Jeremy: 46:03

But I think in general, there's more shows I would categorize as pleasure giving. And so I think there's almost infinite cross promotional opportunities to plug in so that when that trigger event ends, people finish listening to one show. It's like, hey. Here's, like, the next show for you, and you can kinda set up these recommendation networks.

Justin: 46:17

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's well said. And, sure, there's a lot of shows like this in the top 100, but in they have, you know, their own niches as well. Like, there are people that like documentary style serial shows that aren't true crime.

Justin: 46:34

And so Mhmm. If you're one of those people making those shows, then you have an advantage because, people are actively seeking those out. You can see it in Reddit threads like, hey, I just finished the series. What would you recommend next? Yep.

Justin: 46:49

And there's this nice momentum there. So these are the kinds of things you wanna seek out, especially observing what people are saying. Like, what are they saying on social media or on LinkedIn or on Reddit, especially. Like, I just finished the show. I loved it.

Justin: 47:07

What should I listen to next? That is gold in terms of conceptualizing a show and go, oh, I'm gonna make a show for these people because they are hungry.

Jeremy: 47:17

Now on the the problem solver side, a couple we've talked about some of the advantages there. They often have, like, very focused messaging that aligns with what people are looking for. We also talked about how the bar for quality can be lower in some cases. I think the big advantage with problem solvers is that it's and this is the big disadvantage with pleasure givers is that with problem solvers, you can before you ever even start the show, you can research all the problems already and design the show to fit into their world. Where with more of a entertainment or pleasure giver style show, you often cannot.

Jeremy: 47:47

And a lot of times, you actually need to start by making the show, go out and market to a bunch of different communities, and try and find out where do I find traction. And then you start to research those people, and now you're basically at the starting line of where the problem solvers were already. Now you have these people, and you can actually do these kind of listener interviews, and you can be like, oh, this is why people like this show. This is what keeps them coming back. These are the jobs that they're looking to have solved.

Jeremy: 48:11

And so then you can kind of adjust your show to be more in line with that. And so that, I think, is the the missing step that causes a lot of frustration for more of the pleasure giving style show where you have to, like, design your show to do solve a problem that people have, but my show doesn't solve a problem. And I think that this framework of jobs to be done actually starts to give you the language for, like, oh, okay. It's not a problem in the way I thought about it, but there is a need or desire that people have that they are choosing this show for. And I just need to, like, try and find some traction, do anything I can to get my first hundred listeners per episode, and then start doing everything I can to get in touch with those people and try to understand, like, what are the commonalities that got people to seek out the show, where did they come across it, and what keeps them coming back.

Jeremy: 48:53

Yeah. So, yeah, I think in terms of marketing the shows, I think, you know, in both cases, we need to have this understanding of why are people coming to the show in the first place, both why are they seeking it out and what's keeping them coming back. And so I know you mentioned, and you're a big fan of reading reviews, and pulling information from there. You can find a lot of that there. Mhmm.

Jeremy: 49:10

I also like another tactic of looking at competitors' reviews and seeing what is drawing people to those shows and also Amazon book reviews. And so if there are books on your topic, you can kinda mine those reviews and find out, like, oh, why are people seeking out content in general like this? Because, again, like, with the idea of jobs to be done, people might be choosing a podcast to solve a job, but they might also be choosing a book or a YouTube channel. And so there's actually a lot of information out there that it might not be why they're choosing your show, but it is what is getting them to seek out a piece of content on the topic. And so I think those are are some of the ways that you can get these insights.

Jeremy: 49:45

Anything else come to mind for you?

Justin: 49:47

I just think this framework of thinking about people hiring your show to do a job in their life is just so helpful. In the same way that you would hire a landscaper. It's not just like you just want the grass cut, because the grass could be cut poorly. You're hiring it to do this job, which is, I want my lawn to look amazing for the neighbors. Right?

Justin: 50:10

Like, that's what you're seeking. And people hire all sorts of things in their lives every day to do jobs in their lives, and your podcast is one of those things. And you just need to think about how am I gonna get people to hire this show, this episode, and why are they hiring this? Like, if you start to get people who are hiring it, you get listeners, what are they getting out of this? What are they hiring this show for?

Justin: 50:38

What job is it doing in their lives? This is just a very helpful framework for thinking through how your particular audience, what might be motivating them to choose a podcast like yours in the first place.

Jeremy: 50:54

Yeah. And I think the other thing, you know, when it comes to understanding the trigger events and the jobs people are hiring your show to do, a lot of times, and again, not always, It can often tell you where to go to position yourself or what partnerships to make. People who are looking for a podcast host are probably also buying microphones and gear. Maybe they're signing up for a tool like Squadcast or Riverside. And so it's great for a podcast host to say, hey.

Jeremy: 51:16

Let's make a partnership with one of these other things that people are already searching for when they're in the process of starting a podcast. And so we can both promote each other so that if somebody finds Transistor, they're also gonna find Shure microphones at the same time. We're gonna recommend them because we like their microphones, And maybe they're gonna recommend us as their preferred podcast host because people are in the same process at the same time. And so when you understand that kind of a job that people are looking to have done, what other services or content is showing up in the same place, you can actually position yourself, make partnerships, do collaborations with people operating in the same space.

Justin: 51:50

Exactly.

Jeremy: 51:51

As we kinda round things out here, let's just go down some, rapid fire list of some of the shows that we listen to and share some of the jobs that they do for us. Do you have any, shows that come to mind that have specific jobs you hire them to do?

Justin: 52:03

So I have three here. Making Sense, and the job it's doing is give me a reassuring voice in times of turmoil. So, scary event happens in the world. I go to Sam Harris to just give me this calm, reasoned point of view, walk me through it, and I just find that very comforting. Professor G Markets, help me understand what's happening in the markets so that I can respond as an investor and business owner.

Justin: 52:33

Great. Dear John Letters, be my older Gen X brother who can give me advice and keep me company as I walk home.

Jeremy: 52:42

Alright. Yeah. I got, a few here myself. And so, there's a couple there's actually two, On Being and Poetry Unbound, which are actually both under the On Being umbrella. But these it was interesting.

Jeremy: 52:53

They're two totally different shows, but I use them in the same way, which is kind of just to adopt a more expansive view. So if I feel like I'm really maybe tense and I just, like, I wanna think bigger about humanity and what it means to be a human and just kind of, like, get out of my own head, those are two shows that I go to regularly to kinda put myself in that mode. Interesting one, Money for Couples, Ramit Sethi. I've mentioned him a number of times. This is interesting that the job has shifted over time.

Jeremy: 53:18

And so when I first started listening to the show, it was much more of a problem solver, tactical, I wanna learn more about finances as a couple, specifically as I was engaged and getting ready to be married. And now I listen to it almost as a way to just keep my mind on money and thinking about, like, making smart decisions. And so Mhmm. I don't necessarily want to drift into laziness. And so I listen regularly, not to specifically learn anything.

Jeremy: 53:42

I just wanna keep it top of mind. And I actually noticed myself doing this with a whole bunch of content where it's like, I just wanna stew in something because I wanna be thinking about this. I've read several books on business operations recently. And, really, I was like, I already got everything I needed from one book, but I read three more because I was like, I just really wanna soak in this for a time period. It wasn't like I wanna read this many books.

Jeremy: 54:04

It was like, I wanna be thinking about this for several weeks at a time so that my mind can really stew in it and hear the same thing from multiple different angles. And so I read multiple books on it, and I was, like, aware that that was kind of a weird decision. But, also, I know, if I just read the one book, I'm gonna, you know, move on from it pretty quickly. So I'm gonna read some more. The last one, this is really interesting, LaBar Burton Reads.

Jeremy: 54:23

Mhmm. I love that the podcast has now sadly ended, but I reach for the show every time specifically when I am, like, having trouble falling asleep. I will use LaVar Burton Reads as a, like, bedtime podcast, but I will always listen to very specific episodes that I've listened to so many times, always when I've had trouble sleeping in the past. And so I already know the plot. I'm not, like, awake trying to figure it out, and they're just comforting, and they help put me to sleep.

Jeremy: 54:48

So Mhmm. Some of the shows that I reach for to do certain jobs for me.

Justin: 54:52

I think if you look at the Instagram reels that Ramit Sadie is doing for money for couples, there's this other interesting job to be done, which is help me to see that other couples have problems just like me.

Jeremy: 55:07

Yes.

Justin: 55:07

And I think feeling seen and heard is just an underrated job to be done that Yeah. More people should be tapping into. It's especially potent in the audio form. And too often, people get on the mics and they're trying to be this buttoned up professional broadcaster person. And what they're missing is that the vulnerability that brings audiences back.

Justin: 55:41

And so to hear, oh, other couples are struggling too. That's just like us. You know? And these can often create these triggering events where, you know, people might send a clip to their spouse and go, oh, this is just like that conversation we were having the other day. Know?

Justin: 55:59

Looking at the way people are marketing some of these shows, and Ramit Sethi is a great marketer, go and look at his TikTok and his, Instagram reels and YouTube shorts. See which clips they're choosing, and what jobs do those kinda invoke.

Jeremy: 56:14

So if, for everybody listening here, we would love if you left a comment on YouTube or Spotify or dropped us an email and let us know your favorite show and the specific job that you hire it to do. And, bonus points if that show is this show, and then we would then be even more curious to know, what the job, that this show does for you. Yeah. As always, you can find the full Podcast Marketing Trends report at podcastmarketingtrends.com, and we'll talk to you in the next episode.